Wednesday, October 14, 2015

Why I Don't Believe in Judaism (part 3: What Would it Take)

Shortly after I left Judaism, I came up with the following metaphor to capture my disillusionment with the religion. Imagine there exists a large building. From the outside the building looks enormous and impressive. It is covered in beautiful artwork, stained glass windows, the works. The building is also constantly being worked on, but in a strange way. Every time some facet goes out of style, or is damaged, instead of fixing it, the workers just build another structure out over it, covering the unsightly or passe parts and leaving a new one. However, despite this constant work on the outside, no one ever works on the internals. The foundation is crumbling, the old art, since covered over, is fading. To me this building represented Judaism, and unlike most people I wasn't content in walking around the outside admiring the beautiful new works. I went inside, and made the mistake of testing the foundations. I kicked a couple support beams, and before I knew it, the entire building came crashing down.

When I want to describe, as succinctly as possible why I don't believe in Judaism, it makes sense to highlight the difference in how Judaism decides on what is true and how science does. Judaism has a concept, which I've mentioned before, called Yeridat HaDorot which means the descent of generations. The idea is that each generation is farther away from the Sinai revelation, and thus is less capable of making decisions on what is religiously appropriate. The result is that older decisions that are based on faulty information are impossible to overturn. Religious precepts that by today's standards look immoral cannot be removed. Like the building metaphor, a painting can never be removed, it can just be covered over with something less offensive, with the exhortation to please not look behind the new painting.

I've already provided some examples of practices that are immoral by today's standards, such as the laws of Agunah, which has not been overturned despite nearly every modern Rabbi agreeing that the current halachic law is unfair to women. There are countless examples of halachic decisions made on wrong information that are now inscribed in Jewish law. I will talk a little bit about one of them.

When I was in high school, I once asked my Rabbi why we can't use electricity on Shabbat. Previously, I assumed this was a extension of lo teva'aru aish (do not light a fire). This makes sense for things like incandescent light bulbs. But as I learned what electricity actually is, I realized this is untenable for most appliances. What does turning on the AC have to do with lighting fires? My Rabbi actually had a book on the topic which he lent me, and the explanations were pretty much the same as can be found on Wikipedia today.

What I learned is that the original halachic ruling on electricity was that one could not use it because electrical circuits create sparks, which are equivalent to lighting fires. This explanation was based off of a 19th century layman's understanding of electricity and was highly problematic. For one, electric circuitry today does not create any sparks, as the switching is done mainly through semi-conductor transistors. Furthermore, you make more sparks when you put on a sweater, yet that is not forbidden.

In the years that followed, Rabbis learned more about electricity and realized that the original ruling was wrong. However since electricity was forbidden on Shabbat, it was impossible to reverse this decision. Instead, they tried to justify the ban on electricity with other reasons. One said that you were "building" a circuit, another that you were applying the "final hammer blow" and turning something non-functional into something functional. But these answers ring hollow. It's obvious the real reason electricity is not used, because some Rabbi didn't understand the science behind it and made a decision on wrong information. Judaism cannot correct it. They can't tear down the old painting, they have to paint over it.

When we compare the arc of Jewish development to that of science we see something very different. Science continually replaces anything faulty with corrections when they become available. However, because it does this so effectively, you are actually left with a very similar structure compared to what you started with. Just the incorrect things have been updated. Again, using this analogy, science doesn't make a new painting to cover up a faded one, it instead updates the old painting so that it looks new again. Here's a concrete example: the physics we use to calculate the motion of balls or bullets is exactly the same as the expressions postulated by Newton some 300+ years ago. However, when you get to very fast moving objects, like electrons in accelerators, then those laws break down. Instead a new calculation emerges. And the new expression shows very clearly that the old way of calculating balls and bullets is accurate enough. Of course it couldn't be otherwise, because if it was wrong now, it would have been wrong then too and never adopted.

Science is self-correcting, Judaism is not. When I looked at how I should figure out whether something is true or not, science didn't just have an advantage, it blew Judaism out of the water.

But of course, a scientific approach updates with new information. It's very much worth looking at what possible new information might change my opinion on certain matters relating to Judaism. This is what I'll spend the rest of the post talking about.

Divinity of the Torah

Last week I talked about why I didn't believe in the Torah's divinity. But it's worth reiterating what would cause me to believe that there's something to it. An easy way, would be if someone where to use the Torah to forward predict a piece of knowledge. For example, if someone were to use various passages of the Torah to accurately name something like new superconducting materials (which are constantly being discovered in a sort of scattershot approach), then I would take notice.

It of course doesn't have to be superconducting materials, anything will do. The point is that the prediction needs to be forward and not backward. Generally, when people try to square the Torah with science, they do so by accepting the scientific explanation learned from elsewhere and trying to fit the Torah to it. That's not good enough, I want the Torah to give us something definitively new.

This isn't the only thing that would make me believe in the divinity of the Torah, but I'm not going to outline every possibility. One is enough for these cases.

Judaism's Oral Tradition

Another big part of Rabbinic Judaism is the claim of an oral tradition stemming from Sinai to the present day. There are a lot of ways this can be proven, but a very simple one would be by applying the exact same criteria I outlined for the divinity of the Torah to the Oral Torah and seeing if it satisfies any of them. Based on the parts I have studied (which is not complete) it did not seem divinely inspired, but maybe select parts of it do?


Also, just like the Tanakh itself, if you can use the Gemara to forward predict information then that would greatly bolster its claims of divine inspiration.

Historicity of Genesis 1-10

The evidence here is overwhelming that these chapters are ahistorical. It's actually nearly impossible for me to figure out how to change my view on this matter as it would entail a complete upheaval of pretty much everything we know about science. So, I guess to be convinced of this, I'd need to be convinced that pretty much everything we know about geology, biology, and physics is wrong. That's a high bar. Luckily, many people still manage to believe in Judaism without interpreting these chapters literally.

Historicity of the Patriarchal Narratives

Many of the individual details of the patriarchal narratives are beyond what we expect to measure. There's no reason to ever expect some independent verification that, say, some guy named Avraham (Abraham) tried to slaughter his son Yitzchak (Isaac). However, many of the external details of the world do fit into the measurable realm. Unfortunately for the Torah, these descriptions of the world are not accurate. But let's see what could be reasonably discovered that would lend credence to the historical treatment of this era.

1) Indications of a pre-bronze era collapse civilization that called themselves Plishtim, or similar either from on site excavations, or from foreign records from Hattusa, Ugarit, Egypt, Assyria or somewhere else. This would lend credence that the encounters of Avraham and Yitzchak with Avimelech the Philistine king were not anachronisms.

2) Proof of a large scale geological disturbance in the vicinity of the dead sea. This would provide evidence that the cities of S'dom and Amorrah (Sodom and Gemorah) were not wholly fictitious creations.

3) Evidence of kings named Chedarlaomer or Amraphel in Elamite and Babylonian kings lists respectively. Currently, these names have not been found in any of the fairly extensive kings lists, but that doesn't mean that they won't be yet. This would provide evidence that the war of 4 kings against 5 has some historical backing. (Although it's still problematic unless the previous point is resolved, since the five king side appears to be completely fictitious)

4) Of course, even though it's not expected, any independent verification of any of the people mentioned in these stories would make a strong case that at least something here belongs in the world of fact and not the world of myth.

Historicity of the Exodus

The main way of squaring away the biblical account with modern day archaeological knowledge is to reduce the scope of the biblical story to a much smaller scale. This is fine by me and many of the resulting ideas regarding the various exoduses are plausible. However, none of them resemble the Torah in anything but a few details. They certainly don't have the grand sweep of the biblical statement in Deut 4:34
Or hath God assayed to go and take Him a nation from the midst of another nation, by trials, by signs, and by wonders, and by war, and by a mighty hand, and by an outstretched arm, and by great terrors, according to all that the LORD your God did for you in Egypt before thine eyes?
To believe in the Jewish narrative, I would need some hard evidence. For example, I would accept evidence of a significant drop in Egyptian population that could be plausibly related to both the plagues and a departure of a large nation. The discovery of an Israelite encampment (as large as the largest city in the world) at an expected site like Kadesh Barnea or any other  would do as well. I'd even take a well attested conquest of the territory of Israel by outsiders, again numbering roughly what the Torah attests, and allow the extrapolation backwards under the assumption that the Torah does contain true history here. There's nothing like this currently, despite numerous archaeological excavations. But maybe new stuff will be found? That could change my opinion.

Efficacy of Prayer

This is actually a topic that has had much scientific inquiry. The main approach is to have people pray for ill individuals without their knowledge and compare that to an unprayed for control group. A clear result showing the effectiveness of prayer has never been shown. It's pretty easy to describe what would change my mind here, a highly reproducible study showing the effectiveness of prayer.

What has been shown is that people do get an improvement if they believe in prayer and they know someone is praying for them. So if it makes my family feel better, I will tell them that I'll pray for them, fully aware that the prayer does nothing, but the comfort they get from knowing I'm praying is effective.

Moshiach

This is another gimme. The Jewish Messiah (or Moshiach) has as one of his conditions that the entire world will believe in Judaism. So obviously, if someone comes around and establishes Judaism as the world religion, then I will believe. But probably not before.

Existence of Souls

This is trickier. It's already fairly definitive that "souls" if they do exist, do not deal with the laws of physics as we know them. This is already a huge mark against them, and is enough to assert the null hypothesis, souls do not exist, as the most likely. Obviously, I will change my belief if there can be demonstrable physics evidence of the existence of the soul, but assuming that this cannot be done, there may be ways to determine the existence of souls.

One possible approach would be to show some function of cognition or decision making is impossible to influence by affecting the (very physical) brain. This article does a great job of showing how many things normally attributed to souls can be manipulated by altering the brain. It is very difficult to prove that something cannot be affected by changing the brain, but in the absence of any actual physical evidence, this is the high bar that needs to be met.

Paranormal Capabilities of a Rabbi

Sometimes, people will base their belief on Judaism (or really any religion) based on what they claim is witnessing firsthand some miraculous performance of an individual. It is impossible for me to deal with these claims individually. Thankfully there exists a group dedicated to testing all paranormal claims, namely the James Randi foundation has a one million dollar challenge for anyone who claims the capability of paranormal behavior. I will accept any successful completion of the trial as evidence of whatever paranormal phenomenon is being tested. If the trial participant is a Rabbi promoting his use of ruach hakodesh then so be it.

Conclusion

As hopefully I've made clear, what I'm always interested in is trying to figure out what is real and what is fake, myth and legend. If I've been misled, I'd like to determine that and alter my beliefs accordingly. When I was religious, I often found that it was the religious people that often provided specious or incorrect information, and this gave them a black mark on their credibility. However, if they were and are correct, I sure would like to know!

97 comments:

  1. The building is a great metaphor. It really captures what poking around in Judaism is like. I would add, though, that some pieces of the outmoded art are still visible, and people insist that it's still beautiful simply because it's part of the building, even though our culture has changed so much since the time they were created that we cannot appreciate them at all.

    That the stories of the Avos are often repetitive and anachronistic makes it worse, and unlikely they were real people, vven proving the Avos were real people wouldn't do anything for Judaism. Mohamed was definitely a real person, as was Joseph Smith and L. Ron Hubbard, but that doesn't lend any credence to Islam, Mormonism, or scientology.

    Of course the prayer studies show negative results. Would you really expect results from Christians praying to Jesus? And if it were done with frum Jews, well, you wouldn't expect Hashem to answer MO people who aren't really frum, would you? Or Chassidim who are davening with a made-up nusach after the zman. Or litvaks who have no feeling when they daven. Or anyone who isn't having the proper kavanah. And who do you think you are, anyway, that you think Hahshem is going to prove it to you? And if He did, it would ruin bechira. But of course, when *I* daven, then Hashem answers me, every time. Just, you know, sometimes Hashem's answer is, "no."

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    1. Yeah, I'm sure anyone can furnish many reasons why they think the previous results on the efficacy of prayer were "flawed." I bring it up because I think this is a clear way that I can describe a framework that would change my belief.

      And yes I agree that convincing me that the stories of the Avot were real would not make an argument for Judaism itself. It would change a lot of the way I think the Torah came about.

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  2. To me was more like an onion. When uncut , it don't smell. As you peel back more and more layers the stink gets worse. As you peel back more and more layers you derive a better understanding of the onion. I don't have time right now to add more. Anyway another god post from our Kefirah.

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  3. Yes Baal Habos, who do you think you are poking around in a building you can't begin to understand??

    Excellent analogy Kefira, and the Amazing Randi is one of my favorite people on the planet. His story is a lesson to all rabbis, priests, and ministers who abuse their influences and power. As soon as Randi realized people were starting to believe he had real magical powers, he immediately went about spending the rest of his life trying to educate people. Randi is a lot like you and I (and Kocker and G3)!! We spell out simply how misguided orthodox Judaism and TMS beliefs are, yet like in Randi's case, people aren't interested in the truth they'd rather continue believing in fairly tales. The biggest question isn't whether the torah is Divine, but rather how it it that billions of people continue to believe that it is! Randi and others have some interesting hypothesis to explain why human nature and evolution continues to push the human mind towards irrational magical beliefs?

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    1. M Rose - 'who do you think you are poking around in a building you can't begin to understand ??' Well put - I have heard this many times. Have you studied all Shas, all the meforshim, all the gaonim blah blah blah - it is a way to bludgeon somebody into submission. When I was younger there was a popular guy Yuri Geller (a yid) who went around claiming supernatural powers. The wonderful Randi exposed them as magic tricks. Yuri then claims it is true the displays can be duplicated with magic tricks, but nevertheless Yuri has real supernatural powers and that is not how he himself does them. And you could not convince many Yuri was a fraud. The Book The Tenacity of Unreasonable Beliefs written by an ex-OJ (like us) who has a background in psychology tries to address your billions of dollar question. My blog post http://altercockerjewishatheist.blogspot.com/2014/11/the-tenacity-of-unreasonable-beliefs.html was inspired by a single chapter (or was it 2) in that book. I also think it ties in with certain societal l fears if people became atheists/agnostics. Also existential angst drive many to religions which supply comforting news like God loves you, just follow his laws and you will have a wonderful afterlife. Pray to him and you will get rain. If a religions basics were designed by pre-scientific people what would they look like ? Like the ones the billions of people, including Orthodox Judaism believe in.

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    2. Yes Kocker, and Randi exposed Yuri Geller on Johnny Carson live in front of millions of people (video is on youtube) and nothing changed. In fact, Yuri became even more popular.

      I will order that book from my library today, as I am an ex OJ and in the psychology field. Thank you!

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  4. Efficacy of Prayer - The religious will keep doing their studies and NOT publish those that fail. After doing many of them, by coincidence it may happen one study 'proves' prayer works and that is the one that will be published.

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  5. Soul - some religious people use near death experiences as proof. But it can be or will probably all be explained by brain function alone. To my utter amazement Schroeder an actual 'scientist' proves a soul was given to Adam about 6000 years ago. See this post http://altercockerjewishatheist.blogspot.com/2013/12/the-science-of-god-schroeder-part-1.html Also the near death people describe the experience often as per ther religious upbringing - suprise suprise.

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    1. Schroeder abandoned science principles long ago. I'd devote some posts to him, but I'm really uninterested in reading his stuff (again).

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  6. Soul - If a near death experience returnee produced valid secret information (with certain qualifiers) that would be convincing of at least another plane of reality - it would qualify as supernatural.

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  7. I have written several blog posts repudiating alleged secret information in the Torah, Gemorah, Megillah and maybe some others. `Again, amazingly Schroeder often leads his readers to believe the Torah has secret science and other knowledge. Proof of God from Prophecy is a sort of secret knowledge in Torah/Gemorah/Megillah and I have written more than post on it.

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  8. Great metaphor!

    Besides Moshiach, the other cases would only be able to either prove natural history (Avos as you said, a mass exodus etc.) or a supernatural plane of existence. Many other belief systems hold of such a plane and proof of one would not prove Judaism specifically. Even if a Rabbi is psychic, perhaps others are as well and there is another explanation for psychic powers. Even a prophecy in the Torah would be subject to the same point.
    Also, it is very hard to philosophically ever trust a book (or other sources of knowledge about ideological matters) even one displaying extraordinary knowledge and so on. How could we ever trust the source? Perhaps the source is a liar? Perhaps it has intentions we could never even fathom?
    Perhaps we are the cellular world of another universe where we're an experiment in a lab or a teenager's bedroom?

    Thank you for sharing your very interesting story and scientific thoughts.

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  9. I enjoyed reviewing the parsha with you this year and I recognize your sincere drive for truth as opposed to the hatred against religion that others have even if they left for philosophical reasons. That being said I do have a few responses and approaches to orthodoxy I would like to share with you and was wondering what the best way to do that would be.

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    1. @Anonymous I too am interested, even though I may come across sometimes as cranky. Not interested in debating with you, and am willing to listen, although Shtikah Kahoda will nor be applicable. I suggest Kefirah being incognito.

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    2. Anonymous : this is a safe place. I'd like to hear what you have to offer

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    3. If you don't feel comfortable replying here, you can email me. There's a contact link at the top of the page that you can use. I won't mind if you make a temporary account and email from there to maintain anonymity.

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  10. If one would read only the first 3 or 4 paragraphs of your last post, an invitation to a Kabbalat Shabat at the closest Reform synagogue sounds like something you could accept, am I right?
    What is Reform Judaism lacking to convince you of joining them?
    On this same train of thoughts, what would you recommend to someone who agrees to each of your posts, but still is proud of being a Jew or at least wouldn't like to leave the non religious part of it?

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    1. This comment has been removed by the author.

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    2. @ Ari I know you did not ask me - but Humanistic Judaism is an acceptable option for many. Reform for the most part I think has too much belief in Supernatural for my taste.

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    3. Ari, you are absolutely correct that Reform (and moreso Reconstructionist) Judaism solves a lot of the main problems I have with the religion. It's also very possible that if I grew up in the Reform community or even the Conservative one I would not have reacted against the religion as strongly a I did.

      However, I found it extremely difficult to access these branches of Judaism from the perspective of the former Orthodox. It's hard to describe the exact problem, but it mostly stems from being brought up with the idea that Judaism and specifically the Torah was "so much more" than what is held among these branches. So while I can appreciate the cultural aspects, and still do, I can never regain the religious aspect. Shulem Deen compares the loss of faith to a porcelain dish that was shattered, and while you can glue it back together, it's never quite the same.

      To conclude, yes if someone invited me out to a Reform/Reconstructionist Kabbalat Shabbat dinner and service in Madison, I would go. But purely for the cultural aspect. I'd probably even bring my non-Jewish SO, as she might enjoy the cultural side as well.

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  11. Maybe more apropos to previous post, but how about the 7 wonders of Jewish history (Torah prophecies): http://www.simpletoremember.com/articles/a/7-wonders-of-jewish-history/

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    1. Please read my blog posts that cover virtually everything in that link Start here http://altercockerjewishatheist.blogspot.com/2014_04_01_archive.html I have links to posts about Jewish Survival, Prophecy, Rise of Israel and so much more. The simpletoremember arguments dont survive scrutiny. If you want to discuss them I can provide you with my email, but if your mind is made up dont waste my or your time.

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    2. Most of the points in the article seem to a variation on the story or history of the Jewish people (post Biblical times). I find this history fascinating, but not really a sign of divine intervention. Every nation has a story, some are just as heartbreaking as the Jewish people. So yes, the Jewish story is unique and perhaps even improbable, but how do you distinguish something unique from something divinely guided? You can't, and if you do you fall into the probability fallacies regarding unlikely events. Can you even handicap what the probability is that any nation in history would have a story similar in "intensity" as the Jewish people? Is it 1 in 100, 1 in 1000, 1 in 2? I don't know either. An argument that says, "this is improbably so it must be divine" doesn't hold much weight to someone who deals a lot with probability.

      At some point I want to write about this in more detail, but it's going to take some significant time to organize my thoughts.

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    3. I think the point of the simpletoremember page (and similar claims made by kiruv groups - it IS a popular "proof") is not just the "improbable" nature of Jewish history. Indeed, almost every historical event can be claimed to be improbable if one looks at all of the precursor events that were required (thus making improbable a meaningless notion!) The claim relies on the prediction of these events more than 2500 (um, 3200) years ago.

      One obvious problem with the claim is that any prophecy has to be analyzed in its entirety. In Lev 26 (mentioned in the article), God says the Jews will experience horrible punishments, exile, and Israel will be desolate. But it also says that when their hearts are humbled that God will remember the land. That's a problem. Satmar & their ilk say that the exile is not over (3 oaths & all that) but can't explain why God said that the land will remain desolate which it certainly isn't. Other fundamentalists of a more zionist persuasion who believe that God was behind the return & the land in Israel now flourishing, can't explain the prerequisite "heart humbling", and also must account for the still suffering Jewish people (often relying on fuzzy notions like "birthpangs of moshiach".)

      Or Deut 28 (also mentioned). "And among these nations shalt thou have no repose, and there shall be no rest for the sole of thy foot; but the LORD shall give thee there a trembling heart, and failing of eyes, and languishing of soul. " Really, not even in the USA? "And the LORD shall bring thee back into Egypt in ships" Um, when did this happen?

      Etc.

      The smell test for prophecy is that it must be clear and unambiguous and taken as a whole. And that's the problem with the miracle of the Jewish people proof.

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  12. zdub You make some very good points. It seemed to me the arguments for Orthodox Judaism are like used car salesman pitches. No full disclosure. Relying on the ignorance of the buyer. Then there are the ad-hoc invented explanations to brush problems under the rug. They reek of non falsifiability. When I wrote my post on Jewish survival I included the bible predictor as part of it. My Proof of God from Prophecy also gets into the Torah 'prophecy' of the rise of Israel. I once tried to explain to an OJ - Ok we have an alleged prophecy and asked what criteria should we use determine if any prophecy is real. The individual COULD NOT THINK OF ANY. Of course he could not. If we went down that path all his prophecy proofs would crumble. My blog post proof of god from prophecy attempts to set up a sort of litmus test that a prophecy would require.

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  13. Wednesday wasn't complete without a dose of Kefira!

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    1. Awww.

      I'll have something next week. But if you need something. There's been an Anon who's been vigorously arguing with me on a couple posts.



      Here's one: http://kefirahoftheweek.blogspot.com/2014/12/absence-of-evidence.html

      Here's another: http://kefirahoftheweek.blogspot.com/2015/05/the-population-problem-of-torah.html

      That should tide you over until next week!

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  14. First of all, I want to point out that it is obvious that the Torah is true.

    http://www.torahphilosophy.com/2006/12/truth-of-judaism.html

    Secondly, if it is not, then I assume that you believe that we are soulless meat machines having no free will.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/15/books/review/free-will-by-sam-harris.html

    In that case, why are you bothering to write these articles? Everyone, including yourself, believes exactly whatever his brain chemistry makes him believe whether it is true or not.

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    1. @Jacob Stein - It is not at all obvious the Torah is True. My blog post repudiate your so called 'proofs'

      Also see http://altercockerjewishatheist.blogspot.com/2015/08/proof-of-god-from-free-will-justice.htmlmy posts http://altercockerjewishatheist.blogspot.com/2014/05/proof-of-god-from-morality.html

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    2. From your point of view, "you" repudiate nothing because there is no "you".

      What is happening here is that sacks of protein and water in various locations are automatically pressing buttons according to how they have been programmed by the laws of nature.

      If you really believe that, good luck to you.

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    3. @Jacob Stein

      Regarding the linked proofs of Judaism. It's probably at least worth your while to read at least some of the comments on that blog post. For example, if you believe his arguments regarding evolution you are actually being lied to about facts. If you care about truth, you should probably read some more on the matter.

      Nevertheless, if there's one argument in particular that you think is truly compelling, I'd be willing to discuss it in depth.

      >In that case, why are you bothering to write these articles? Everyone, including yourself, believes exactly whatever his brain chemistry makes him believe whether it is true or not.

      Let's assume your description of what I believe regarding free will is correct. (It's not quite right, but it's somewhat close enough.) Let's also assume that the primary goal of the blog is persuasion (it's not, you should read what I've written under the "about" tag for more info there)

      Even if this case, there would still be a very useful purpose in that people may line up on one side or the other based on the information that they currently have available. Additional information may sway the outcome, even if brains were entirely deterministic.

      >If you really believe that, good luck to you.

      I am forced to confront reality as it exists not what I would like it to be. It would be very nice if I could fly merely by flapping my arms up and down, but I cannot. It would be pretty disastrous if I were to assume that was true and jump off a building. It is a harsh reality that I cannot fly in such a manner.

      Similarly, it's very comforting to believe that there's a "me" that's somehow separate from my physical body and brain. That if something were to happen to my brain, what makes me "me" would still be there somehow. Unfortunately, we have tremendous evidence that this is not the case. We can make people completely different merely by changing their brain state. Sometimes this can be disastrous, as with many traumatic injuries or debilitating diseases such as Alzheimers. But it can also be used for benefit with anti-depressant drugs and the like.

      I would recommend this article which indicates how every single facet that you would like to represent the real "you" can be manipulated or even destroyed entirely, by manipulating the brain. You are your brain and your brain is you.

      http://www.patheos.com/blogs/daylightatheism/essays/a-ghost-in-the-machine/

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    4. @ Jacob Stein did you even bother reading my blog posts ? If you did fine, and if you did not find them convincing thats also fine. I responded to your sack of protein argument - but you just repeat it. Here is the link again http://altercockerjewishatheist.blogspot.com/2015/08/proof-of-god-from-free-will-justice.html

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  15. "Nevertheless, if there's one argument in particular that you think is truly compelling, I'd be willing to discuss it in depth."

    Sure.

    The atheist world view of an eternal universe slowly, blindly evolving is a myth contradicted by all evidence.

    The universe in fact was created about 14 billion years ago in the Big Bang.

    About 4 billion years ago life on earth appeared suddenly.

    About 530 million years ago many forms of more advanced life appeared suddenly (the Precambrian-Cambrian transition).

    About 450 million years ago, there was a sudden transition from trilobites to jawed and bony fish (the Ordovician–Silurian transition).

    About 374 million years ago, there was a sudden transition from early fish to the first true amphibians (the Devonian-Carboniferous transition).

    About 252 million years ago, there was a sudden transition from giant amphibians to reptiles and primitive mammals (the Permian-Triassic transition).

    About 200 million years ago, there was a sudden transition from smaller reptiles to giant dinosaurs (the Triassic-Jurassic transition).

    About 65 million years ago, there was a sudden transition from dinosaurs to mammals (the Cretaceous–Paleogene transition).

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    1. @jacob

      I am currently at a conference and will fly back home tomorrow. I am currently too tired to respond in detail, but I will do it when I return. Please check back here after Shabbat.

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    2. @Jacob Stein

      Is your God, the God of the Gaps ?

      See my prior links provided to you and these too.


      http://altercockerjewishatheist.blogspot.com/2013/08/proof-of-god-through-design.html

      http://altercockerjewishatheist.blogspot.com/2013/09/proof-of-god-from-origin-of-life.html

      http://altercockerjewishatheist.blogspot.com/2013/09/proof-of-god-from-big-bang.html

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    3. @ Jacob Stein

      It is unfair to ask others to educate you about evolution, cosmology etc: etc: May I suggest you read up on evolution and cosmology in text books.

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    4. @ Jacob Stein I googled for you https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permian%E2%80%93Triassic_extinction_event

      There are some proposed natural causes. I will not do this for all your questions. Good Luck.

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    5. @Jacob Stein: I am finally sitting down to write stuff out. My current assumption is that you are interested in what evolutionary theory actually predicts and whether it aligns with information recovered from fossil records. I know it's extremely easy to get very emotionally attached to these arguments, especially when you encounter strongly worded disagreements and critiques, but I will attempt to speak in a calm neutral tone. After all, if it's reality you are after, you probably want to know exactly what evolutionary theory is and what it predicts. In so doing, I may say things that you already know, and I apologize for that. Based on what you have written, I don't know where I should be starting, so I'll start from the beginning.

      Evolutionary theory is a combination of two steps that govern changes in a population over time and move towards higher levels of complexity through random processes. Step 1 is a random mutation in which some members of a successive generation receive different traits from members of the preceeding generation. The second step is a selection step, in which the strongest survive to "breed" and the weakest die out without producing children.

      Given enough complexity in a member of the population (any life form fits this) then we have some additional things we can state as obvious truths. The first is that the vast majority of random mutations will either be bad or neutral. This is true because the parent at any state already represents some level of "optimization" (described a bit more thoroughly later). This leads to the fact, which you allude to that change by mutation is extremely slow. Another fact is that the efficiency of the process is improved when a child has multiple parents. We can see this with a simple example where we have two members. Member one has one good trait and one bad trait, member two also has one (different) good trait and a (different) bad trait. If each only produces its own offspring, which are essentially clones, then in order to get a child with both good traits and neither bad trait, you'd have to wait for the good traits to mutate, which as we noted above is slow. However, if those parents mate, there is a 25% chance of a child with both good traits. That child will outclass its peers and survive to produce more children. It turns out that having three parents is more efficient than two, but biology doesn't allow for that.

      Now we can ask your question which is essentially, "if mutation is a slow process, why do we see such sharp changes in the fossil record?" This is a good question, it's one that puzzled Darwin and is one of the reasons you find it on creationist sites. Darwin thought these sudden changes should not exist. Darwin was wrong. In fact, evolutionary theory actually predicts that you should have very sharp changes. And it can be proved!

      (continued)

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    6. (part 2)

      There are many ways to prove it but perhaps the easiest way to grasp is by simulation methods. It turns out evolutionary methods are very useful to solve a large range of tricky "optimization" problems in which you are trying to figure out what set of traits yields the best result. In biology the best result means the ability to survive and reproduce. However, in optimization problems, it can be defined in any way you choose, like enclosed area of a set of curves, energy yield of a reactor, distribution on an energy grid, and so on. It turns out when you run these evolutionary algorithms you always see the same behavior. The population stagnates at some metastable point for a long period of time making only small sudden changes, and then all of the sudden, after many generations of no improvement, you see a sharp jump. Why is this? The answer is that even though change by mutation is *slow,* natural selection is *fast,* often brutally so. If there ever was produced a change which does give a significant advantage in survivability, even if it took many generations to arrive, once it arrives it spreads very quickly.

      You can do this and see it for yourself. I've used evolutionary methods to optimize physics problems and have seen this behavior. But if you want an example, you can see one here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcAq9bmCeR0 . You can ignore the beginning section if you want. The key graph is around 6:19 where he shows how the population of clocks takes many generations to go from a simple pendulum to a true clock, and it always takes about that many generations, but the changes are extremely quick once an improvement is stumbled upon.

      So already this is enough to answer the main complain, but I want to talk about this a little more, because the history of life is indeed interesting. It turns out that in the world things happen differently than in our optimization algorithms. This is because our optimization algorithms have a fixed metric that they use to evaluate whether something lives or dies. In the clock example above, clocks that tell time better are always selected for. In the world sometimes what allows a species to survive changes over time. For a simple modern example. Usually bigger is better, a bigger animal can outcompete others for food. But sometimes bigger is worse. When we fish waters and throw all the small fish back but take the big fish home to cook we create selective pressure so that smaller fish are more likely to survive than bigger ones.

      Sometimes what favors survival changes very quickly. Many of the examples you chose highlight such changes. Let's look at the last one. You wrote: "
      About 65 million years ago, there was a sudden transition from dinosaurs to mammals (the Cretaceous–Paleogene transition)." But that's not really what happened. What happened around 65 million years ago is that all the *large* animals died off very quickly. This included all of the apex predators and large herbivores. All of those large creatures (I think) were reptiles. Smaller reptiles survived, as did smaller mammals. Now after the dust settled the playing field changed. With the new playing field, mammals were actually able to outcompete the reptiles. The reptiles of course didn't disappear, they along with birds, are the survivors from the dinosaur side. We know what caused the extinction at the end of the Cretaceous, it was a large meteor that struck the earth.

      (continued)

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    7. (part 3)

      Now we can look at those sudden changes and see if they also correspond to mass extinction events. The Triassic period did end with an extinction event which destroyed about 22% of marine families. The Permian extinction event was far worse, killing 83% of all genera and 96% of marine species. (Of note, this extinction event was possibly cause by climate change!) The Devonian era ended with 50% extinction of all genera. I don't need to go on. So what we see in the history of the earth is that the large changes in the fossil record align with large extinction events. This does not imply that species rapidly changed during this time period! What it implies is that species that were less numerous, but managed to survive the extinction event, suddenly found themselves in a resource rich environment where they were able to become numerous and start leaving more abundant fossil records.

      Now, it should be noted that some of the mass extinctions come from external events, such as volcanic eruptions or meteor impacts, but not all. Sometimes a mass extinction is caused by life itself. An example of a biologically created disaster is the Great Oxygenation Event, when simple life forms "polluted" the atmosphere with poisonous oxygen. As they died out, the species that could actually survive in oxygen flourished.

      Just as a closer, since I am a physicist and I like to think in numerical algorithms and models. I said earlier that these features are not present in our evolutionary models, but that's usually because we're trying to solve a problem, but there's no reason we can't suddenly change what makes something good partway through the algorithm. When we do, we will see the same abrupt changes in population. In fact, we actually do something like this in some evolutionary algorithms because we are worried about so called "local minima" problems where your entire population gets stuck in a region where any small change makes it worse, but a large change might make it better. By sometimes changing the rules of selection, we can often jump out of the local minima and find a better solution. This is perfectly analagous to an asteroid clearing out the dinosaurs allowing for the mammals to arise!

      Now, do you still maintain that the fossil record is in disagreement with the theory of evolution? If so why?

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    8. Actually, one more thing that I forgot to mention. Evolutionary theory says that transitional species should be rare, but they should exist in some quantity in the fossil record. We should be able to look back and see intermediate stages for the development of certain organs or features. Indeed there have been many of these fossils discovered. The are rare, but they do exist. You can see a nice list on wikipedia here:

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_transitional_fossils

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    9. So what is your opinion about the current mass extinction event?

      http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/earth-is-entering-sixth-extinction-phase-with-many-species-including-our-own-labelled-the-walking-10333608.html

      Do you view it as a prelude to the next sudden jump upward in evolution and if not why not?

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    10. Incidentally the concept which you are referring to is catastrophism.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catastrophism

      Evolution by definition is a process of gradual change.

      http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/evolution

      If someone blind gradually regained his eyesight we could say that he evolved into a sighted person however if someone blind had surgery and in a matter of hours became sighted then "evolved" would not be the appropriate word.

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    11. You can attack strawmen all you want, but I will have none of it. I've described evolutionary theory as understood by biologists. It does not mean "gradual change" despite what you wish. I even defined it in the beginning of my response, and showed why "gradual change" is a false way to understand evolutionary theory, both from a strictly mathematical sense, and from a historical description of species evolution on earth. Please address that.

      Regarding the current mass extinction. There is no "sudden jump upward" in any of them. That's not at all the way to think of it. However, if it occurred that most or all of humanity was destroyed then there would be a large increase in speciation in the surviving species. As long as humanity remains the dominant species, we will actually be the primary driving force behind evolutionary changes.

      >If someone blind gradually regained his eyesight we could say that he evolved into a sighted person

      No we certainly would not. This is such a serious misuse of the term I am currently under the impression that you actually do not even know enough about evolutionary theory to have a meaningful conversation on the topic. I would highly recommend reading some basic introductory texts. Jerry Coyne's "Why Evolution is True" is a good starting point.

      It's silly to debate the topic any further unless you demonstrate that you actually understand what you are discussing. I gave you the benefit of the doubt in my initial response and consequently put effort into answering the question. This comment, and your response to ACJA below convince me that you don't actually understand evolutionary theory at all.

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    12. @ Kefirah - it has been years since I studied evolution in University - thanks you very much for the excellent summary with a physics and a more modern emphasis.

      Climate change + plant - animal interaction is so important for evolution . It drove human evolution and in the end may do us in. Grasses invaded as forest receded as our ancient ancestors began to descend from the trees and make better use of their new environment.

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    13. First of all, I'm merely pointing out that you are using the wrong word. You don't believe in evolution, you believe in a different theory called catastrophism.

      Secondly, so you are saying that you are supportive of the current mass extinction event and you believe that it will ultimately lead to the appearence of more intelligent life forms. Would you advocate global warming or thermonuclear war and if not why not?

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    14. Also, by the way, evolution isn't an algorithm. It's a spontaneous process.

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    16. AK, here is a simple analogy which explains how atheists believe we got here and why, aside from the fossil evidence contradicting it, probability contradicts it:

      Evolution proposes that vast amounts of seemingly purposeful complexity can be generated through a random chance process, provided that a great deal of time and space are available and some external selective force limits this random process.

      This is basically comparable to someone illiterate attempting to publish books through random trial and error and customer selection. He would buy a printing press, open a bookstore, start printing and make more copies of whatever sold. At first he just arranged his printing type at random, printed and put the results on the shelves. No one bought anything since it was all gibberish. He threw all these failures into the trash bin and continued printing. Eventually, purely by chance, one small booklet actually made sense and in fact became a best seller. So he kept printing more copies of it. Occasionally, there would be some typographical error in the printing; purely by chance, a page would be smudged, a line would be missing. Generally these errors would cause the book to be defective and it would be thrown into the trash, however once in a while a typo would add more meaning to a copy of the book – perhaps a few interesting new sentences. People would ask for more copies of it. The illiterate author would then faithfully reproduce that typo. Gradually entire new books developed through this process of random typographical errors and customer selection. Eventually, the inventory in the book shop had expanded to include tens of millions of titles including novels, plays, poetry, scientific textbooks, history, biography, huge dictionaries and encyclopedias and so on. In fact, these books were actually far more beautiful and profound than books ever written by any human author. All of these were produced by a totally illiterate author through a process of random printing, typos and customer selection over a very long period of time.

      Needless to say, such a process is unimaginably unlikely to be successful. It has already been calculated, for example, that the possibility of a monkey typing Hamlet is infinitesimally small. [Search the Internet for "infinite monkey theorem".]

      For more details about this problem, I recommend the book Not By Chance by Lee Spetner.

      Aside from mathematics, atheism is also contradicted by paleontology (the sudden appearance of life;

      http://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/oct/19/life-on-earth-began-300m-years-earlier-than-previously-thought

      the repeated sudden changes in life

      http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/28/science/28mari.html)

      and by the Big Bang. With no eternal Creator, creation must be eternal, however we now know that it isn't.

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    17. So you see AK your religious beliefs, like so many others, simply don't hold water under careful scrutiny. Atheism is a scam.

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    18. Jacob. I'm sorry but you are so incredibly incorrect in your understanding it would be a complete waste of my time to deal with it. I highly recommend actually reading something comprehensive about evolution before commenting more. But some points.

      Catastrophism is a theory of geology not biology. It has no reference to the topic at hand. Evolution is exactly what I described.

      You can absolutely create a legible book by the methods described in your analogy. Provided you include good selection rules.You won't get a masterpiece novel, but you will get something that makes sense in English. It will have oddities and weirdness that belie its creation method, just as biological life does.

      In all seriousness, I recommend you actually pick up a book on evolution so that you can actually engage in the conversation without saying foolish things. I won't comment any more until you (or someone else who wants to pick up the mantle) demonstrates that they understand evolutionary theory.

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    20. "You can absolutely create a legible book by the methods described in your analogy."

      Great. Why don't you try and let me know when you've got one.

      And don't forget that the simplist bacterium is far more complex than the most beautiful work of human literature. Scientists are not even close to fabricating a bacterium from basic chemicals.

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    21. Just like a devout Catholic might dismiss my objections to Jesus being the messiah with a wave of hands and a comment that "In all seriousness, I recommend you actually pick up a book on Catholic theology so that you can actually engage in the conversation without saying foolish things. I won't comment any more until you (or someone else who wants to pick up the mantle) demonstrates that they understand Roman Catholicism."

      Frankly that type of response will not get me to the baptismal font.

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    22. No, I already did answer your original question fully. You clearly displayed that you did not or choose not to understand what I was saying. If you did, you wouldn't have responded how you did.

      I don't have time for trolls.

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    23. "No, I already did answer your original question fully."

      Well, I'm happy that your answers satisfy you. However like true believers everywhere you may be blind to some glaring problems.

      First of all, take my "illiterate author" analogy. (This is similar to what Dawkins entitled his well known book "The Blind Watchmaker"; although I believe that Dawkins was being deceptive. A blind person may be able to create a lot of things. What would have been more honest would have been "The Mindless Watchmaker".)

      In my analogy the inventory in the book store would never drastically change and in fact it's obvious that there would never be any inventory.

      But this is not what science tells us about natural history:

      Living organisms may have existed on Earth as long as 4.1bn years ago – 300m years earlier than was previously thought, new research has shown.

      If confirmed, the discovery means life emerged a remarkably short time after the Earth was formed from a primordial disc of dust and gas surrounding the sun 4.6bn years ago.

      http://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/oct/19/life-on-earth-began-300m-years-earlier-than-previously-thought

      The greatest “great dying,” 251 million years ago, erased 95 percent of species in the oceans (and most vertebrates on land). But new research suggests that it was followed by an explosion of complexity in marine life, one that has persisted ever since.

      Moreover, it happened quite suddenly, according to the study, which was led by scientists at the Field Museum of Natural History in Chicago and published in the current issue of the journal Science. The shift to complicated, interrelated ecosystems was more like a flip of a switch than a slow trend.

      http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/28/science/28mari.html

      "I don't have time for trolls."

      I'm kofer in Kefirah but not a troll. Although you may not make a distinction.

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    24. I'll give you another chance if you want.

      Your original question was whether the fossil record, which shows periods of increased and decreased rates of speciation, is consistent or inconsistent with evolutionary theory. Furthermore, I explained exactly why transitions appear suddenly and showed you exactly why evolutionary theory predicts fast transitions.

      If you want to discuss more you need to address why you don't agree with the argument. If you do agree that I satisfactorily explained why transitions are sudden, we can discuss other topics such as abiogenesis or the argument from design.

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    25. I explained evolutionary theory quite clearly with my "illiterate writer" analogy which would never involve a sudden complete change in the inventory of the book store. Therefore the sudden changes in fossil record refute evolution.

      The sudden appearance of life in the first place is an additional problem for atheists, who had previously assumed that perhaps a billion years of churning chemical soup had somehow created the first microorganism.

      Furthermore my analogy demonstrates that evolution is simply impossibly improbable.

      By the way, the dictionary definition of the word evolution means ״gradual improvement". If you deny that, then you need a new name and I think "catastrophism" is what you are referring to.

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    26. I see you refuse to actually address my reply. I realize it was a waste of time writing it for you, but perhaps someone else who actually wants to learn will appreciate it.

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    30. "I see you refuse to actually address my reply."

      Which was basically this video, posted by some anonymous individual.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcAq9bmCeR0

      So I have not explained why a 346 line program written in an obscure programming language called MatLab, which I have have never before heard of and I would need to purchase special software to run, does not accurately demonstrate the feasibility of Darwinian evolution. And until I have done that you will not discuss the obvious fallacies and absurdities of atheism.

      What if a rabbi would tell you that he will not discuss with you the truth of Judaism until you have studied the entire Talmud? Would that impress you?

      I think you just don't have any answers.

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    31. The MatLab program which you link to as being the definitive proof of evolution is the same variety of mumbo jumbo used by many cult leaders to win gullible converts. See for example the writings of David Koresh, the leader of the Branch Davidian cult who was killed in the raid on his compound in Waco, Texas.

      http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/gopher/text/religion/koresh/Koresh%20Seals

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    32. AK, since you find computer simulations so convincing, here is one which refutes evolution.

      http://creation.com/weasel-a-flexible-program-for-invest-deterministic-computer-demonstrations-of-evolution

      I look forward to reading your critique.

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  16. Sure. I automatically get an email whenever a comment is posted.

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  17. Dear Alter Cocker, first of all I want to congratulate you on choosing a very appropriate nom de plume. I shows a high level of self awareness.

    http://www.jewish-languages.org/jewish-english-lexicon/words/15

    I'll explain to you why your thinking is ridiculous.

    In essence, by claiming that any proof of God is merely a result of our ignorance, or a gap in our knowledge, you are denying our ability to know anything about the past no matter how strong the evidence.

    For example, let's say the police respond to a "shots fired" emergency call.

    Upon responding the officers observe someone standing with a gun next to a corpse.

    The medical examiner determines that the cause of death is gunshot wounds.

    Forensic experts determine that the projectiles were fired by the gun which the suspect was holding.

    Following his arrest the suspect refuses to be interviewed by detectives and at trial refuses to testify, as is his legal right.

    At trial the prosecution argues that the suspect is clearly guilty. He was literally caught holding the smoking gun.

    Defense argues that this is merely a "killer of the gaps" argument. True, the defense has no other explanation for why the suspect was standing next to that corpse holding the murder weapon minutes after the killing. However that surely does not mean that there is no other explanation! We just don't know what it is, however there may well be many other as yet undiscovered and perhaps never to be discovered explanations! Therefore the jury must acquit.

    What verdict would you expect with that type of defense?

    As A Kefirah so rightly pointed out yesterday, I am forced to confront reality as it exists not what I would like it to be.

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    1. @ Jacob Stein U say "Dear Alter Cocker, first of all I want to congratulate you on choosing a very appropriate nom de plume. I shows a high level of self awareness.

      http://www.jewish-languages.org/jewish-english-lexicon/words/15

      I'll explain to you why your thinking is ridiculous.

      In essence, by claiming that any proof of God is merely a result of our ignorance, or a gap in our knowledge, you are denying our ability to know anything about the past no matter how strong the evidence.

      For example, let's say the police respond to a "shots fired" emergency call.

      Upon responding the officers observe someone standing with a gun next to a corpse.

      The medical examiner determines that the cause of death is gunshot wounds.

      Forensic experts determine that the projectiles were fired by the gun which the suspect was holding.

      Following his arrest the suspect refuses to be interviewed by detectives and at trial refuses to testify, as is his legal right.

      At trial the prosecution argues that the suspect is clearly guilty. He was literally caught holding the smoking gun.

      Defense argues that this is merely a "killer of the gaps" argument. True, the defense has no other explanation for why the suspect was standing next to that corpse holding the murder weapon minutes after the killing. However that surely does not mean that there is no other explanation! We just don't know what it is, however there may well be many other as yet undiscovered and perhaps never to be discovered explanations! Therefore the jury must acquit.

      What verdict would you expect with that type of defense?

      As A Kefirah so rightly pointed out yesterday, I am forced to confront reality as it exists not what I would like it to be.' "

      My Response

      I want to point out - the Talmud would NOT FIND the man holding the gun guilty. I will add watch Perry Mason - there are cases just like yours where it is found the gun holder is not the murderer. Perry discovers how, and yet if he had not you have a wrongful conviction. Ever here of framing somebody - happens in real life to.

      Second The God of the Gaps is a logical fallacy similar to an argument from Ignorance and Argument from Incredulity. This is not open to debate.

      Third - your analogy is fallacious. We know people and guns kill other people based on past experience and if there is enough evidence (say more than you provide actually) then we have an extremely strong case say 99% against the man holding the gun. But all your evolution and abiogenesis questions are puzzles in science - you cant solve those puzzles by saying supernatural. In addition we have no evidence of supernatural doing anything.

      Why did the rock fall ? Gods did it.

      Why did the river flow - Gods did it

      Why is there lightning - Zeus does it

      See how silly that all sounds.

      Good Shabbas

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    2. @ Jacob Stein to follow up on my third point

      If we know supernatural existed, then we perhaps we may plug in solution to a puzzle with supernatural. However, even then you may draw the wrong conclusion - since maybe for that puzzle supernatural did not do it. So even then the God of the Gaps shows the fallacy. You would need evidence that supernatural was actually involved in solving the puzzle , not merely saying supernatural could have solved it.

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    3. @ Jacob Stein to follow up some more:

      For real world examples - like your murder case - we know people are involved and we know guns kill and we know from similar cases it is likely the man holding the gun likely killed. We know this based on forensics, history, confessions, and human nature . But how can you know that for a particular science puzzle - supernatural is involved.

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    4. @ Jacob Stein -

      There are proposed natural solutions to virtually every one, if not every one of your science puzzles. Those solutions are consistent with current scientific knowledge. We always choose a natural solution over a supernatural one.

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    5. @ Jacob Stein U say “In essence, by claiming that any proof of God is merely a result of our ignorance, or a gap in our knowledge, you are denying our ability to know anything about the past no matter how strong the evidence.”

      Most arguments I have seen for supernatural are arguments from ignorance.

      You can know about the past by collecting empirical evidence, using science, and using the methods of historians. The reliability of the knowledge about the past will depend on what data and information is available about the past event and the reliability of the science, data, and information used. I don’t think you ever have 100% reliability.

      Now I mean it . Good Shabbas

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    6. We know that machines containing many moving parts all working together to accomplish a certain purpose are always created by an intelligent designer. Even when primitive people are first confronted with entirely unfamiliar technologies, they always assume that an intelligent designer made them, although they may assume that the designer was superhuman.


      Therefore, when we see the heart or the eye, we know that an intelligent designer created it. In other words, God made us.


      You seem to believe that so many proofs of Torah have already been invalidated, therefore surely this one will be as well. Which proofs are those?

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    7. @ Jacob Stein see http://altercockerjewishatheist.blogspot.com/2013/08/proof-of-god-through-design.html

      Moreover, basing your argument (even in part ) by what primitives may infer is part of the problem. Not only were they guilty of god of the gaps, which I have already explained to you in detail they were ignorant of modern science.

      See this post were I provide a list of almost every proof for god that I have so far written about. http://altercockerjewishatheist.blogspot.com/2014/04/some-reasons-to-reject-orthodox-judaism.html

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    8. There has never been a machine which was observed to have been created by anything other than an intelligent designer. Therefore we know that God created us.

      What I meant was that I don't know of any proofs of God which were suggested by rabbis in pre-scientific times which science has since proven false, thereby creating a presumption that all the rest are false.

      Many proofs of evolution have been proven to be frauds, for example Haeckel's embryos or Piltdown man. I can therefore claim that any remaining proofs of evolution are merely an "evolution of the gaps" which further research will surely eventually disprove.

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    9. @ Jacob Stein - Evolution is a fact - the evidence supporting it is overwhelming. The real reason you reject evolution is because you think it conflicts with Judaism.

      What ancient Rabbis proofs do you speak of ? Your argument from design is a failure for reasons given here and at my blog. Repeating your argument over and over again do not make them valid.

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  18. Quite the contrary. Evolution is a myth, contradicted by everything which we have learned about science since Darwin.

    Have you ever wondered why no new technology or medical treatment is based on evolution or why no Nobel prize has ever been related to evolution? Because it is fiction, not science.

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    1. @ Jacob Stein - you are in error. I think the stats are over 95% of biologists accept evolution, and for good reasons. Check out http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/medicine_01 I also suggest you study myths are how they differ from science.

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    2. @ Jacob Stein https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_medicine

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    3. @Jacob Stein U write "Have you ever wondered why no new technology or medical treatment is based on evolution or why no Nobel prize has ever been related to evolution? Because it is fiction, not science."

      You ask a question based on an error of facts. But even if you had the facts correct, your answer is preposterous. Can you think of no other answer to your question other than Evolution is fiction ?

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    4. The links which you give refer to micro evolution - small variations between parents and children which has nothing to do with Darwin or atheism. What is controversial is macro evolution - the creation of new limbs and organs spontaneously, watches made by a mindless watchmaker.

      And of course all scientists support evolution for a simple reason: overwhelming personal self interest.

      Prior to evolution the most prestigious members of society were clergymen. All universities were primarily theological seminaries.

      Post evolution, the clergy lost all power and scientists became the new intellectual leadership.

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    5. @ Jacob Stein U write "Have you ever wondered why no new technology or medical treatment is based on evolution or why no Nobel prize has ever been related to evolution? Because it is fiction, not science."

      I supplied you some links refuting your statement then you redefine evolution. - moving goal posts. Then if I gave you an example of that you would then say give me an example of something else. Are you being intellectually honest ?

      Nor did you respond to my other points. I.e Can you think of no other answer to your question other than Evolution is fiction ?

      And your ad-hominem remark regarding biolgists is preposterous. I will let you figure out why.

      Macro evolution is not controversial - I have no Idea what you are talking about.

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    6. No goal post moving. Evolution means "a watch can come into existence spontaneously, no intelligent design required". However your example are not watches - meaning a new limb or organ. So it's not evolution.

      Your comment about 95% of biologist believing in evolution is like my commenting that 95% of Orthodox rabbis believe in God, Of course they do, what would you expect?

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    7. @ Jacob Stein u write “No goal post moving. Evolution means "a watch can come into existence spontaneously, no intelligent design required". However your example are not watches - meaning a new limb or organ. So it's not evolution.”

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macroevolution “Within the modern evolutionary synthesis school of thought, macroevolution is thought of as the compounded effects of microevolution.”
      “...(i.e. "macroevolution" by the scientific definition) has been observed multiple times under both controlled laboratory conditions and in nature.”
      “The claim that macroevolution does not occur, or is impossible, is not supported by the scientific community.Such claims are rejected by the scientific community on the basis of ample evidence that macroevolution is an active process both presently and in the past.”


      @ Jacb Stein writes “Your [ACJA] comment about 95% of biologist believing in evolution is like my commenting that 95% of Orthodox rabbis believe in God, Of course they do, what would you expect?”

      The biologists conclusions are based on overwhelming support of multiple disciplines. They had no apriori dogma. The biological and other evidence lead to evolution. How you can compare the science of evolution to Rabbinical beliefs is beyond comprehension.

      EVEN without evolution, your argument from design is flawed as I have explained in my blog post, and my comments to you here.

      @Jacob Stein U write "Have you ever wondered why no new technology or medical treatment is based on evolution or why no Nobel prize has ever been related to evolution? Because it is fiction, not science."

      You ask a question based on an error of facts. But even if you had the facts correct, your answer is preposterous. Can you think of no other answer to your question other than Evolution is fiction ?

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  19. Koker, your naïveté is touch, however let me enlighten you about why scientists are scamming you about evolution.

    Prior to Darwin and the publication of Origin in 1859, universities were primarily theological seminaries devoted to the study of the Bible. Just for example, at Harvard University in Cambridge, Massachusetts the presidents were almost all clergymen until 1860 and daily Morning Prayer attendance in the school’s Appleton Chapel was compulsory until 1886. This is reasonable when one considers that obviously the study of God and His revealed word has a higher priority than the mere study of His creations.

    But atheism changed all that.

    Following Darwin, the Bible became merely a book of myths, the clergy merely delusional fools and scientists became society’s most prestigious intellectuals. This was a huge intellectual revolution, against “religion” (meaning God and the Bible) and in favor of science. Obviously, scientists will attempt to promote evolution by any and all means possible, convincing themselves and others that any half baked shred of evidence is infallible proof. (As an example, vestigial organs were once a major “proof” of evolution. Today we know that they are all useful, not “accidental leftovers from an earlier species”.)

    And if anyone still questions evolution, scientists will helpfully point out that since nearly all scientists are evolutionists therefore it must be true. So scientists believe it because it’s true and it’s true because scientists believe it and that settles all arguments. I am sure that in the Middle Ages, Catholic bishops would have answered any laymen who questioned Catholic dogma with the same rock solid logic. Scientists, who are the atheist clergy, are no more infallible than the Christian priests whom they replaced.

    There is actually no conflict between science and the Bible, if one uses the word “science” in the specific sense of knowledge derived from exact, repeatable laboratory experiments, which would include physics, chemistry and medicine. This is the type of science which has indisputably improved the lives of billions of people and which wins Nobel prizes.

    There has been, however, since 1859, a huge conflict between scientists and the clergy.

    This does not imply the existence of any sort of conspiracy, in the sense of hundreds of thousands of scientists in dozens of countries all knowing the secret truth that evolution is false, but not revealing it. Rather this is merely a delusional and self serving false belief, similar for example to the Nazi German belief that Germans were superior to all other nations. Scientists, who study nature, have conveniently concluded that the study of nature is superior to the study of the Bible.

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  20. Let me just sum up for you.

    The idea that the universe is eternal and has been gradually, spontaneously improving clearly could not have happened and clearly did not happen. Scientists insist that it did happen because this myth grants them immense power and money.

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    1. Jacob Stein writes “As an example, vestigial organs were once a major “proof” of evolution. Today we know that they are all useful, not “accidental leftovers from an earlier species”. “

      To the best of my knowledge - Vestigial organs are still strong evidence of evolution see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence_of_common_descent#Vestigial_structures

      Can you source where the scientific consensus says otherwise ?

      J. Stein writes “ And if anyone still questions evolution, scientists will helpfully point out that since nearly all scientists are evolutionists therefore it must be true. So scientists believe it because it’s true and it’s true because scientists believe it and that settles all arguments”.

      Preposterous. Scientists support evolution theory with all sorts of evidence.

      J. Stein writes “The idea that the universe is eternal and has been gradually, spontaneously improving clearly could not have happened and clearly did not happen.”

      There is a lot of uncertainty regarding cosmological models. Can you source where a cosmological model claims “spontaneously improving”

      J. Stein writes “Scientists insist that it did happen because this myth grants them immense power and money.”

      Preposterous. Scientists need to show their theories, hypothesis and speculations are consistent with all known information and scientific knowledge.

      Your ad-hominem attacks on the scientific community do nothing to support your position.

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    3. As I've already shown above, evolution contradicts everything that we know about natural history. To which you'll reply "That can't be! 98% of scientists all believe in evolution." Sure. And 98% of priests believe in Jesus.

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    4. Jacob Stein writes "As I've already shown above, evolution contradicts everything that we know about natural history"

      You have shown no such thing. Evolution is supported by overwhelming evidence. Deal with it. Your claim of a biologist conspiracy is a delusion.

      Repeating your invalid argument does not make it any more valid.

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    5. @ Jacob Stein - maybe it is you who is in error. You have to deal with the evidence supporting evolution. Good Luck

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  21. Now Richard Dawkins, the pope of atheism, has begun to loose his marbles. Why am I not surprised?

    Richard Dawkins compares Texas 'clock boy' Ahmed Mohamed to ISIS killer
    http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/25/europe/uk-richard-dawkins-clock-boy-ahmed-mohamed/index.html

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    1. @ Jacob Stein -Regarding Dawkins - please try to stay on topic. Dawkins does not count as evidence for evolution. I think about 95 % biologist opine evolution is valid. It is the expert consensus. And for good reasons. Deal with it. Good Luck

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  22. "An easy way, would be if someone where to use the Torah to forward predict a piece of knowledge."

    I've seen Torah placing unlikely bets, and getting them right! For example it predicted the exile, dispersion, and return of the Jewish people- an unparalleled event in human history. No one has come back from the brink of exile except the Jews. If you want to learn more read: https://www.simpletoremember.com/articles/a/the_seven_wonders_of_jewish_history1/
    or contact me at dovs09@gmail.com

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    1. @David R check out http://altercockerjewishatheist.blogspot.com/2013/08/proof-of-god-via-jewish-survival-jewish_12.html and http://altercockerjewishatheist.blogspot.com/2015/01/proof-of-god-from-prophecy-part-1.html and http://altercockerjewishatheist.blogspot.com/2015/01/proof-of-god-from-israel_28.html

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    2. David, I apologize that it took so long to reply to this comment. I'll share some of my thoughts.

      The Tanach both predicted the exile and didn't predict the exile. It very much plays both sides. For example in a famous section in Shmuel Beth 7:12-17, God promises to maintain David's kingdom forever. Similarly God promises that because Yoshiyahu was such a righteous king, that he would die peacefully. He dies in battle. After the reign of Yoshiyahu the structure of Melachim changes. Kings are no longer judged at the ends of their reigns as every king before them are. It's as if there's a different author here.

      This different author is important, because this same second author may also have been responsible for those exile predictions you mention. Only in this case the predictions were made when the exile was very obviously imminent, or possibly after it had happened!

      Furthermore when you refer to the dispersion of the Jewish people and return, I'm assuming you mean 1948 and not the time of Ezra. If by chance you do mean the time of Ezra, it's important to know that the vast majority of Judah was not exiled. This is clear in the text of Ezra and Nehemiah where they attempt to reconcile the Judaism practiced by the exiled members in Babylon and the "Am Ha-aretz" who are in the majority. Indications are that it was only the elites, the government and the priests, that were exiled.

      As far as later Jewish history, there are indeed events in Jewish history that are unique. But that's true for every nation. Given 2000 years, who's to say that say the Rohingya (for just one example) won't find a home back in their native lands.

      But in a sense this is besides the point. What's more important is that predictions are only useful if they're specific and accurate. Open ended predictions that can occur any time in the future are not very impressive. Vague predictions with many possible interpretations, as most biblical predictions are, aren't worth much. In fact, this really highlights to me why searching for answers in "revealed" texts like the Tanach is nowhere near as useful as using scientific methodologies. I can tell you extremely useful information, like sunrise and sunset times hundreds of years into the future. Or perhaps more relevant to today's age, I can give you information of what will happen to the world should we continue to produce large carbon emissions. It seems obvious to me that we would be a lot better off if we moved all the biblical eschatological predictions into the trash bin, and instead trusted methods that have good track records.

      But, even so, if you still believe that the Torah possesses important knowledge about the future, then I ask you to put it into practice. Study the text and make a prediction about the future. Better yet, make one that conflicts with scientific knowledge. Just make sure it's one you are able to test in a finite amount of time. Bring that prediction to me, and we'll discuss!

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